Saturday, July 23, 2005

More on John G Roberts

Dr Patrick Whelan of Catholic Democrats has a great write-up worth checking out:

Moving beyond Roe v Wade in the debate over a new Supreme Court Justice

The spotlight will certainly be intensely focused on the issue of the legality of abortion in America in general, and the sustainability of Roe v Wade in particular. We believe this is an utter mistake, both for conservatives and for liberals. Those people who have made overturning Roe the litmus test for the morality of one’s stance on abortion have vastly overstated the effect this ruling has had on abortion rates in America. Not even accounting for speculative estimates of the number of illegal abortions that occurred prior to 1973, the national abortion rates now (16/1000 women/year in 2001 according to the CDC) are lower than they were prior to Roe v Wade. One study has estimated that there were 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions in the US in 1967 alone; the total legal abortions in 2002 were 1.29 million, with a population that was 40% larger. Overturning Roe is no Holy Grail when it comes to decreasing abortion in America.

Studies on abortions in Mississippi, which has among the most restrictive laws in the country and only a single abortion provider, have shown that the overall number of Mississippi women having abortions has remained unchanged. Such laws appear simply to have resulted in 60% of that state’s women seeking abortions out-of-state. With the dramatic increases in non-surgical abortions in recent years (up 173% between 2000 and 2001, according to the CDC), any effort to outlaw abortion will likely result in substantial numbers of these procedures being done illegally with drugs like misoprostol that can be produced for pennies and sold for hundreds or thousands of dollars on the black market. No one disputes how poorly federal and state governments have succeeded in combating the use of illegal drugs in the United States.

In other words overturning Roe v Wade, with an anticipated change in a few state laws making abortions illegal, may have no effect on the number of abortions in America. It would serve primarily to give some social conservatives the satisfaction of knowing that “someone was being punished” for abortion—with substantial costs in maternal deaths, induced birth defects, and penal system dollars expended—without actually doing anything to reduce or stop the practice. There is no theological basis for using the threat of state power to impose a solution to any moral problem. Jesus never advocated using the coercive power of the state to accomplish what each of us must do in our own hearts. [...]


For those of us who are Christian and pro-choice, this makes tons of sense.

61 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ono,

You can't be Christian and pro-abortion. (Let's do away with the euphamism of "pro-choice," as we know what that "choice" is, to kill unborn children. To make that "choice" is to do evil. This IS pretty black and white, regardless of what the liberals would have us believe.

Also, I highly suspect the study in question as to the number of abortions prior to Roe v. Wade. However, that being said, although abortions would likely come down slightly with the overturning of Roe, it probably wouldn't be a huge difference as such a move by the SC would give it back to the states to decide, and now with such a anti-life mentality throughout the country, most states would likely retain legal abortion. Had Roe never been decided in the way it was, perhaps we would never had gotten to the point we are at today. Kind of hard to put the genie back in the bottle, though.

David B

8:35 AM  
Blogger Ono said...

Spare me the crap. If you think someone died and made you God so you can determine who is qualified to be a Christian, then I got a bridge to sell you.

12:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, but I guess it's ok for millions of women (many under pressure from boyfriends, husbands, parents and/or peers) to play God and KILL THEIR BABIES!?!?!

So, yes, you can't be Christian and pro-abortion. You can't say you are a follower of Christ and yet see nothing wrong with destroying the life He created. Deal with it!

David B

11:14 PM  
Blogger Ono said...

Someone needs to clear the fog out of your brain. I'm not sure what you want at this blog, but I think you definitely need to spend far more time elsewhere.

9:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Someone needs to clear the fog out of your brain."

I know abortion is the killing of innocent unborn children. I think the ones with brain fog are those who think that is an acceptable "choice."

"I'm not sure what you want at this blog,..."

I don't know. Is it unreasonable to expect that one who tries to pass himself off as a Christian blogger (or do you just like to put Scripture verses on your blog and talk about Christianity?) would realize that the murder of the unborn goes completely against anything that following Christ stands for?

"...but I think you definitely need to spend far more time elsewhere."

I guess it's your blog. If all you want is for the people who comment to pat you on the back and say what a great guy you are and in all ways walk in lock step with you, then perhaps you don't want me to leave the occasional comment. Wouldn't want to be uncomfortable, after all. So much for diversity of thought and opinion.

David B

2:08 PM  
Blogger Kevin said...

Abortion is something that we will never be able to do away with. In a broken and fallen world, the best way to deal with it is to put safeguards and restrictions on it. If not in hospitals, abortions WILL happen in less safe and sanitary places putting the mother at risk as well.

If there can be a "just war" can there also be a "just abortion"?

But one thing you can say about the Catholic perspective that distinguishes itself from their protestant friends is that Catholics are consistant in their ethic of life. You don't have Catholic religious leaders condemning abortion while passionately affirming the death penalty, for example.

As a pastor, I try to counsel young women to 1. NOT have sex before marriage. 2. If they "happen" to get pregnant, to look for other life-affirming options other than abortion. 3. If they do choose abortion, I'm there to offer to pick up the pieces. In my experience, very few women walk out of the operation thinking they've done something good or even morally neutral. There is almost ALWAYS grief and guilt involved.

kgp

10:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kevin,

"If there can be a "just war" can there also be a "just abortion"?"

No. How, exactly, would that work? When would it be just to kill an innocent, defenseless, unborn child?

David B

9:52 AM  
Anonymous midwestmom said...

Kevin,

That's nice of you to offer to pick up the pieces for a woman who has had an abortion but how do you follow her around for the rest of her life? If they have a conscience, they never get over it. The guilt is horrific.

10:26 PM  
Blogger John said...

The first trouble whenever we get into this argument is when does a sperm and egg become a 'child'.

Science offers us no clear answer, the Bible offers no clear answer (for passages that can be used to support one position, there are others that can be used to support the other, heck some times a single passage can appear on both sides).

In then end, when the child exist in the nine month passage from egg to human becomes a matter that each individual must determine, based upon issues of both science and faith as understood by those effected.

For a person who holds that a collection of a couple of cells is a child, then abortion should never be an option, but for those who hold that ensoulment occurs later, a differing standard applies.

The real difference is those who support choice, also support the choice to have a child. Those who denounce choice want to impose their own personel determination of life and ensoulment upon everyone else.

lacking a definitive answer, the individual must make the final determination, and choice is the only Christian answer

10:43 AM  
Anonymous midwestmom said...

"lacking a definitive answer....choice is the only Christian answer."

Sounds pretty definitive to me, John.

12:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

midwestmom, maybe you've never gotten over your abortion (since you seem to be so intimately acquainted with the aftermath, I can only assume you've had one and are still feeling guilty about it), but women with consciences do indeed heal and find peace after their abortions. You can't speak for all post-abortive women, only for yourself.

One can understand abortion to be wrong yet still not support the criminalization/de-legalization of abortion.

If you want to see what happens to a country where abortion has been criminalized after it has been legal for some time, take a look at Portugal. Are you willing to subject every female who miscarries in this country to a criminal investigation?

Yes, there are times when I personally believe that abortion is the lesser of two evils. Is this just? Probably not in the truest sense of the word. But, had the women in question in these situations been treated justly in the first place, abortion wouldn't be something they're forced to consider.

In cases of rape and incest, forcing the victims to carry the children of their abusers and violators may be a greater horror than that of abortion. There needs to be a choice for women and girls in these situations.

Of course, if half the energy spent spouting off by the pro-lifers was spent preventing violence against women, there'd be far less women in that position.

Thing is, fighting the causes of abortion requires time, effort, money, commitment and sacrifice. Fighting for the pro-life movement just requires a big mouth, a sheet of oaktag, and a Sharpie.

I'll believe people are truly pro-life when they fight for ALL life. Otherwise, just say you're pro-fetus and leave it at that.

3:11 PM  
Anonymous midwestmom said...

No, I've never had an abortion but I've heard enough horror stories from women who have. In fact, I just returned from a Catholic youth conference where the keynote speaker was a woman who had an abortion 2o years ago. She still can't tell the story without breaking down. Not a dry eye in the house.

It's so easy (and predictable) for you to spout the same sorry lines that the pro-abort crowd has been using for years, but your illogical hypotheticals don't hold water:

"In cases of rape and incest, forcing the victims to carry the children of their abusers and violators may be a greater horror than that of abortion. There needs to be a choice for women and girls in these situations." There is a choice - it's called adoption. Do you really believe that women only get abortions to erase the horror of rape? The most prevalant reason for abortion in this country is birth control, plain and simple. Look up the stats.

"Of course, if half the energy spent spouting off by the pro-lifers was spent preventing violence against women, there'd be far less women in that position." And what are you doing to prevent violence against women? Are pro-lifers the only people obligated to look out for others? Do the pro-aborts just get a free pass?


"I'll believe people are truly pro-life when they fight for ALL life." You'll have to clarify this statement for me, if you can. And, then, stop talking in cliches and learn to think for yourself.

12:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Midwesternmom:

You have heard SOME horror stories from SOME post-abortive women in which they describe their on-going struggles with their abortions.

This is not ALL women. ALL. As in Every. Single. One.

Again, you cannot speak for ALL women. To imply that only those without a conscience (which is exactly what you did in your previous comment) are able to dind peace and healing, and to move past their abortions is a vicious, obviously biased lie.

I am not pro-abortion. For you to assume that I am because I do not agree with you is far more predictable than anything else here. Bet you think I'm a Dirty Liberal, too. /eyeroll

I never said I thought women only get abortions to ease the horrors of rape. For you to imply that I did is another vicious, obviously biased lie. I said that my opinion was that there should be a choice for women in rape/incest cases. How does that translate to me justifying all abortions?

Adoption does not give women the choice not to carry the children that were forced upon them against their will via a violent act. Don't be stupid. Adoption only heaps more emotional trauma on these women. The point is that pregnancy should not be forced upon anyone. Adoption is a later choice for a woman or girl who CHOOSES to carry the baby of her violator. Some women do not choose to carry the babies of their violators, and I believe they should have that right. No one has the right to force pregnancy and childbirth on another person. If society cannot prevent individuals from forcing sexual intercourse on people, then society has a right to see to it that these victims are not further violated by forcing pregnancy and childbirth on them.

What do I do personally to prevent violence against women and children? I work at a shelter which provides safe haven for those who have been the victims of domestic violence. I support the work of those who aid rape victims. I donate to groups that provide aid to those who have been abused and raped. I support legislation that does not serve to force pregnancy and childbirth on innocent women. That's what I do. What do you do, since you had the bad taste and audacity to insist on my personal credentials in this debate -- what are YOUR credentials when it comes to ending domestic violence?

All of us have an obligation to look out for the abused and the victimized, no matter what our personal views are. Every. Single. One. Of. Us. Because Jesus said so. Or don't you read the Bible?

I very much think for myself, and I do not think in cliches. Stop making personal attacks just because you disagree.

ALL life means just that -- ALL life. Not just the unborn.

It means you work to end poverty, hunger and homelessness. It means you work to end drug addiction and domestic violence. It means you promote self-respect and respect for others. It means you operate under the "there but for the grace of God go I" philosophy.

It's quite sad that you had to ask, actually.

I can see that speaking to you is like speaking to a brick wall.

Frankly, you're not worth the time or effort. You have made enough erroneous assumptions about me, condemned me, and called me enough names for me to see that you are a hateful, spiteful, selfish woman.

May God have mercy on you.

1:18 PM  
Anonymous midwestmom said...

"Frankly, you're not worth the time or effort. You have made enough erroneous assumptions about me, condemned me, and called me enough names for me to see that you are a hateful, spiteful, selfish woman." I didn't call you any names but you managed to call me hateful, spiteful, and selfish all in one sentence. (o:

"May God have mercy on you." Does this mean my soul is in danger of eternal damnation because I don't agree with YOU?

Let's hear it for that good old-fashioned liberal tolerance!

10:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"All of us have an obligation to look out for the abused and the victimized, no matter what our personal views are. Every. Single. One. Of. Us. Because Jesus said so. Or don't you read the Bible?"

Unless the one being abused and victimized is an unborn child conceived by rape or incest, right Anonymous? Did Jesus say it was ok to turn a blind eye to the worst child abuse of all, the ripping apart, limb by limb in the womb, of an innocent baby due to the crime of his/her father? I guess I missed that part in the Bible. Perhaps you can cite me chapter and verse where Jesus said it was ok to ignore these littlest ones.

David B

12:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, David, it's not "alright", but when I see you saying it's equally wrong to shoot innocent Iraqi men and women and children, I'll buy into that bullshit.

Sometimes we have to make decisions between lives. We kill in self-defense. We kill in war -- often in unjust wars. We kill criminals out of a sick sense of revenge.

When you are raped and pregnant, you get a voice on this issue. Until then, you don't know the devastation being FORCED to carry a baby and give birth to it creates.

We call those innocent babies killed in war "collateral damage" and think nothing of it. But when a sixteen year old girl is raped and impregnated against her will and all she wants is some emergency contraception, she's a murderer.

Right.

Like I said, when YOU are raped and impregnated, you get a voice. Until then, shut up about things you can't possibly understand.

Because you're just another rapist when you start forcing people to carry children against their will.

Work on stopping rape. Especially since you males are the ones responsible.

Fucking rapist.

4:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

You're use of vulgarities show a poor grasp of the English language and undermine your message. That said, I guess only drug addicts can speak against drug use, or to tie into your raging post, only rapists can speak against rape. Don't call me a f****** rapist. You have no idea what you are talking about and are totally classless to refer to me as such. Not to mention that you choose not to even give your name, but rather hide behind your anonymity to spew your vulgarities and hatred.

David B

2:29 PM  
Blogger Jcecil3 said...

Greetings!

I am a "seamless garment" Roman Catholic who supports a consistent ethic of life, meaning I am opposed to abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, and human cloning, but also opposed to preventative or unjust war, the death penalty, or the right for people to be sold guns indiscriminately.

On the abortion issue, I would dance for joy if Roe were overturned, and I wholeheartedly support an amendment to the constitution defining the right to life as beginning at conception.

I do believe that abortion should be illegal.

All of this said, I must point out that Ono's original post and subsequent comments do not in any way imply that he thinks abortion is a great thing. In fact, his original post points out that criminalizing abortion alone seems to have the effect of increasing the abortion rate.

If that is true, we who oppose abortion need to take that seriously.

Ono has long championed the notion that rather than focusing on restrictions to abortion, we Christians should look at the reasons women chose abortion, and then try to solve those problems. As he puts it, instead of focusing on the supply side, let's focus on the demand.

Ultimately, we who are pro-life must change hearts on this issue if we are to succeed, and I grow more and more convinced each day that Ono's suggested strategy is the way to do that. If we can reduce the demand for abortion to a very low level, it may become concievable to our opponents that legal restrictions are the right ethical choice.

True, Ono is not looking at his point of view as a mere step to eventual criminalization of abortion. He doesn't seem to hold the opinion that even if abortion rates were near zero, we could criminalize it.

Nevertheless, I think it is safe to say that if the abortion rate were nearly zero, there would be little opposition to criminalizing abortion. Therefore, I'm willing to work with an Ono or other Democrats to come up with a concrete plan to reduce abortion rates.

On a separate point, I agree with the good pastor who points out the brokeness of women who have abortion. Being Christian is about defending the dignity of innocent human life, but the higher priority to a Christian is always to make the loving mercy of God known.

We need to be cautious in our passion to defend the innocent that we do not drive the guilty to despair. God loves women who have abortions and doctors who perform them with an indescribable, infinite, lavish love that is willing to put the worst sin behind a person as far as the east is from the west.

In our passion, we must never fail to offer our well reasoned position with gentleness and respect for other people - even respect for those with whom we strongly disagree.

Our rhetoric must not be shrill, discourteous, bordering on the irrational, authoritarian, unforgiving, and lacking in gentleness and humility or a sign of God's abundant mercy.

I close by repearting that I am passionately pro-life and hope that one day, abortions will be as much of a past in America as infanticide is a thing of the past in Europe. But we who are working for this goal must be patient in working towards this goal, and strive to be effective rather than simply "right".

Peace!

4:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, "DavidB", I know so much about you and who you are from your made-up username...

Your only counter is to tell me I have a poor grasp on the english language, I cursed and I posted under anonymous...

Guess you don't have any real arguments for forcing women to become impregnated and carry a baby against their will. I suppose that ought to give me hope. At least you recognize that there is no civilized, reasonable, Christian argument to force impregnation and childbearing on innocent women. And it's nice to see that you can't justify murdering Iraqi babies.

Deep down you pro-fetus people always fall apart when faced with anything that can actually breathe and talk on its own. You live on the 'net, hide behind your billboards and posters, scream obscenities at women you don't know, make a big noise, and then go home to your sad, lonely little basement apartments, shovel some more Taco Bell down your fat faces, and wait to spread your hate another day.

And yeah, men who support other men forcibly impregnating other women are as good as rapists. It's just another violation. It's just more force. It's just more complete dehumanization of a woman. That makes you a rapist.

Funny how the two pro-rapists here couldn't come up with a single thing they're doing to end domestic violence and violence against women...

4:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

JCecil

You're confused...

Don't you know that God only loves the people who proclaim themselves perfect in every way, and he loves men more than women, and he can't love or forgive anyone until some asshole in a robe says he can, and he can't be present unless the same asshole says the magic spell and makes him appear in a piece of bread and then doles him out like a little doggie treat to all the people who rolled over and jumped through the hoops without making a mistake?

You're very confused. The Catholic God is very, very picky about who he loves, and even then he has to ask for the Pope's permission first.

This is why I'll fight for choice and why my sons and daughters will fight for choice - because of pro-rapes like midwesternmom and DavidB who believe in forced impregnation and childbearing.

4:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

Yours is one of the most irrational responses I've read. Bizarre, to say the least. So, at that, I'll leave you to your own, strange little world.

David B (real first name and last initial, btw)

2:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh. Wow. Your first name is David and your last initial is B. and you still don't have a blogger profile and you're now less anonymous than I am...

No, dude. You're just more phony than I am. "Anonymous" is what we both are, only I'm being honest about it.

But we've already proven you to be a rape-supporter, so who really cares what you have to say.

4:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

"But we've already proven you to be a rape-supporter, so who really cares what you have to say."

You've proven nothing other than that you know how to commit calumny. But, to you, if one thinks that an innocent unborn child shouldn't be murdered to pay for his father's crime, is tantamount to supporting rape. But, I see logic isn't one of your strong points, although ad hominem attacks are.

David B

9:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is for "anonymous" and anyone else who thinks it is ok, and perhaps even good, for a woman to abort her unborn child conceived through rape or incest. Now, I know it is quite possible that "anonymous" and others may not take the time to read the article and/or will come back with more ad hominem attacks against me or the author of the article, David C. Reardon, PhD. If so, so be it. It will show whether there is an openness to the research or not.

http://www.afterabortion.info/rape.html

David B

9:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Like I said, when it happens to you personally, you get to choose.

I know what I'm talking about.

You don't.

So shut the fuck up.

Rapist.

2:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

It's too bad you feel you can't discuss the issue rationally without resorting to vulgar language, calumny, and ad hominem attack.

You say I don't know what I'm talking about, but you do. Unless you wish to elaborate on what you know, then why would anyone believe you know more than anyone else? Instead, all we get is your anger, ranting, name-calling, and some need to defend aborting innocent unborn life if they were conceived by a criminal act, of which they had no say in the matter, either. You completely ignored the link I provided that show pretty convincingly that aborting babies conceived through rape or incest does not help women deal with the tragedy of rape, and further that nobody seems to be asking what they want anyway, as 75% - 85% of women who became pregnant as a result of rape/incest reject or regret their abortions. Instead, many people project their own opinion on these women that surely they would want to abort these babies.

So, either address the issue without the ad hominem attacks, or have your last word without the expectation that it will be responded to. I don't have time for the crap you've been throwing around.

David B

1:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you're not a woman who has been raped, you can't know what I know.

If you're not a woman who became pregnant as a result, you can't know what I know.

If you're not a woman who was FORCED to have a baby, who had that baby ripped out of her and taken away without even seeing it, you can't know what I know.

What you know is worth shit. What I know is real.

Fuck you.

I haven't got time for pro-rapists. I haven't got time for idiots who look at biased studies conducted by a MAN who can't ever know what rape IS and think that's worth more than the actual, real, truth.

Besides, you think it's perfectly alright to rip human beings apart with bombs so you can get access to an oil field, and I'm supposed to take you seriously when you would refuse a woman EC (which would prevent conception) after rape? I'm supposed to take you seriously when you sit back and allow thousands to die of starvation but would prevent a rape victim from getting an early term abortion?

Right.

You're just another loser who probably lives with his mother, works at a tollbooth and weighs 900 pounds from scarfing down fast food all day long.

You're a zero. You're nothing. You're just a loudmouth who will never have to suffer the consequences of anything he supports, and who hates women and would FORCE impregnation and childbearing on them at the same time he would merrily blow up an Iraqi baby.

You're a hypocrite and a rapist. Fuck you.

4:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

I feel pity for you. You are a sad, sorry, pitiable individual who seems to feel that the only way you can discourse with another is by using vulgarity, slanderous calumny (do you even know what calumny is?), and making up absurd claims about what I believe. God heal you of whatever it is that makes you this way.

BTW - the research that shows a 75% to 85% rate of rejecting/regretting aborting babies due to conception by rape was done by a woman. You'd know this if you had read the article, instead of rejecting out of hand the article because it was written by David C. Reardon, who, btw, is considered the leading researcher of post-abortive affects on women. If, as you seem to indicate, you were raped and carried the baby to term, only to have it taken away from you, I'm sorry for what you have endured. Would killing the baby have erased the reality of the rape?

As long as you hold on to the anger that you display towards others, you will never be able to heal. God have mercy on you.

David B

11:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, I'm not guilty of calumny, you dumbass, because no one knows who you are here, and no one knows who I am.

I don't care who did the study. Like all studies supported by the pro-fetal-life-only crowd, it's no doubt biased and skewed and missing any number of important factors.

What I know about you is that you would FORCE a woman to carry a child that was FORCED upon her to term and FORCE her to give birth or have surgery performed to remove the baby.

That alone is enough to prove that you believe it's alright to violate another human being's body and to force your will upon her.

When you are a woman, and when you've been raped, and when you are impregnated against your will by a sex act forced upon you against your will, and when you are forced to carry that baby to term and deliver it against your will, you get to have a say.

Until then, you know nothing. You can throw all the statistics you want around, but statistics don't mean a damn thing when it comes to particular individuals.

But you pro-fetal-life-only people don't like real situations involving real individuals, do you? Why, you might have to acknowledge that there are other people on the planet besides you with rights. That's why you stick to the unborn and the comatose. They can't speak up and tell you to shut the fuck up and stay out of other people's business.

You're a man. You have no voice in any situation where a woman has been raped and pregnancy is forced upon her. No voice. No say. It can't ever happen to you, so you can't possibly know anything about it. So shut up and mind your own business. Why don't you stop wasting your time further violating women who've already been violated and go get your guy friends together (if you have any - ha!) and see what you can do about stopping your fellow males from raping and beating women. That's the voice you get to have. Don't steal other people's voices from them - especially when everything else has already been stolen from them.

12:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

"No, I'm not guilty of calumny, you dumbass, because no one knows who you are here, and no one knows who I am."

Christ knows who I am and who you are. Do you think your verbal abuse towards me is ok with Him?

"I don't care who did the study.
Like all studies supported by the pro-fetal-life-only crowd, it's no doubt biased and skewed and missing any number of important factors."

And like all the pro-abort crowd, you have your own biases and will reject outright any study that shows that abortion harms women.

"What I know about you is that you would FORCE a woman to carry a child that was FORCED upon her to term and FORCE her to give birth or have surgery performed to remove the baby.

That alone is enough to prove that you believe it's alright to violate another human being's body and to force your will upon her."

No, but it shows that you believe it is alright to violate another human being's body and to force your will upon her (or him), by tearing the body limb by limb in the womb.

"When you are a woman, and when you've been raped, and when you are impregnated against your will by a sex act forced upon you against your will, and when you are forced to carry that baby to term and deliver it against your will, you get to have a say."

Bullshit! As a Catholic, I am called to speak out in defense of the innocent and defenseless. It matters not if one is male or female to do what is only decent and right.

"Until then, you know nothing. You can throw all the statistics you want around, but statistics don't mean a damn thing when it comes to particular individuals."

I know abortion is murder. I also know there is a vast number of women who are the walking wounded because of this bill of goods that have been sold them, that abortion is the answer to their problems. On the surface, it may seem to actually be true for those who have been violated through the horrific crime of rape or incest, but the research, however much you may wish to reject it, does not bear this out.

"But you pro-fetal-life-only people don't like real situations involving real individuals, do you?"

Well, I guess since you place yourself on the other side of the debate, I should refer to you as a pro-born-life-only, but unborn be damned person, who tend to reject the real life experiences of 75% to 85% of women who regret or reject abortion as the answer to dealing with pregnancy through rape. You don't seem to care about these real life people and their real life situations.

"Why, you might have to acknowledge that there are other people on the planet besides you with rights. That's why you stick to the unborn and the comatose. They can't speak up and tell you to shut the fuck up and stay out of other people's business."

Oh, so you think the unborn are wanting to be ripped to pieces and would tell those who would speak for them to "shut the fuck up," as you so eloquently put it? No, I speak up for those who have no voice. That is what Christ calls us to do. To advocate for their destruction is only from the evil one.

"You're a man. You have no voice in any situation where a woman has been raped and pregnancy is forced upon her. No voice. No say. It can't ever happen to you, so you can't possibly know anything about it. So shut up and mind your own business. Why don't you stop wasting your time further violating women who've already been violated and go get your guy friends together (if you have any - ha!) and see what you can do about stopping your fellow males from raping and beating women. That's the voice you get to have. Don't steal other people's voices from them - especially when everything else has already been stolen from them."

Christ is a man. Do you hate Him, too? Do you think He would be silent in the face of women choosing to kill His creation? Would you tell him to shut up in the same vulgar terms you have used towards me, and undoubtedly any other man who has ever dared to speak up for the defenseless unborn? Undoubtedly, being God Himself, He would be able to express compassion far better than I towards women in such a situation, regardless of how hard I try. However, although He would be compassionate, He would not affirm a woman in her decision to kill the unborn child. One cannot undo the sin of rape by compounding it with the sin of abortion. Many, many pro-lifers would gladly help the woman bear the burden and bring the child to birth. As much as you might disagree, those who are pro-life are not the enemy.

David B

10:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

75% - 80% of ALL women, or 75% - 80% of women who were asked for that particular study?

Statistics are worthless.

So the other 25%- 15% should suffer?

And, unless you are against ANY form of killing, your pro-life stance means nothing. If you aren't equally as willing to speak for the Iraqi children who didn't ask to be blown up, then you're just a hypocrite. If you aren't equally as willing to speak up for the thousands of children who die of starvation each day while you sit in your nice house with more food than is probably good for you and type away on your expensive computer, then you are a hypocrite. Because, as you said, as a Catholic, you are CALLED to speak for the innocent and defenseless. Actually, you're called to do a lot more than speak, but talk is cheap and action might cost you something.

You're either for ALL life or you think some life is more valuable than others. Which is it? This is an easy question. Is all killing murder? Is all killing wrong?

All abortions aren't "murder". We make judgements about whose life is more valuable in a particular situation all the time. Sometimes it is necessary to end the life of an unborn baby in order to preserve the life of the mother - and I don't mean just to preserve her pulse. I mean it's the one thing that will preserve her wholeness.

Can the pro-fetus people who are oh-so-eager to help her (all while whispering how she probably asked for it, how she was a slut anyway, how she dressed like a harlot and she deserved what she got, blahblahblah behind her back) carry the baby for her? Can they give up their bodies? Can they give her back those nine months? No. They can't do shit, when it comes right down to it. And I know for a fact if the baby is black, they're not quite so quick to help...they only want nice white marketable babies they can dish out to their friends.

As for God/Christ...I'd have a whole fucking lot more respect for him if he actually showed up. But he hasn't got the balls. If he can't take care of people, they'll have to take care of themselves, and if he doesn't like how they do it, too bad for him because it's not like he has to deal with any of this shit. He could stop it and he doesn't, so he either doesn't exist or he's a loser. Frankly, you don't get to criticize how other people handle the garbage you allow to be heaped on them when you don't lift a finger to do anything yourself.

6:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"75% - 80% of ALL women, or 75% - 80% of women who were asked for that particular study?

Statistics are worthless."

No study questions EVERY person who fits in the group being studied. It's not logical to expect such a study. But, I guess you will never use any study to bolster any view you have, lest you be hypocritical.


"So the other 25%- 15% should suffer?"

Perhaps they would not suffer as much as they do by aborting the child. By killing the baby, does that erase the memory of the crime committed against them?

"And, unless you are against ANY form of killing, your pro-life stance means nothing. If you aren't equally as willing to speak for the Iraqi children who didn't ask to be blown up, then you're just a hypocrite. If you aren't equally as willing to speak up for the thousands of children who die of starvation each day while you sit in your nice house with more food than is probably good for you and type away on your expensive computer, then you are a hypocrite. Because, as you said, as a Catholic, you are CALLED to speak for the innocent and defenseless. Actually, you're called to do a lot more than speak, but talk is cheap and action might cost you something."

Expensive computer. Hah, that's a good one. Always go for the ad hominem attack when all else fails. Anyway, to address the strawmen you toss out here. Who says I don't speak out in defense of these other groups you mention? What do you know about me? Do you know what I do with my time? Do you know what I do with my finacial resources? Do you know? Or is it easier to just assume I do nothing but talk and therefore you feel you can judge me? Talk about casting the first stone in YOUR self-righteousness!

"You're either for ALL life or you think some life is more valuable than others. Which is it? This is an easy question. Is all killing murder? Is all killing wrong?"

I am for the defense of all innocent life. For those guilty of heinous crimes I am for life in prison, no parole, and not a comfortable life in prison.

"All abortions aren't "murder". We make judgements about whose life is more valuable in a particular situation all the time. Sometimes it is necessary to end the life of an unborn baby in order to preserve the life of the mother - and I don't mean just to preserve her pulse. I mean it's the one thing that will preserve her wholeness."

Direct abortion, i.e., that intended to end the life of the unborn baby is murder. Always. Now, that is not to say that if the baby dies due to a medical procedure that's first intention is not to kill the baby, but the baby will die as a result of the procedure, is murder. It's not. If a woman becomes pregnant and finds out she has cancer, it is not murder for her to receive chemotherapy or radiation treatments, even if the baby should die as a result. But, if you are honest, you know that this is not the case with abortion law in our country. A woman can abort her unborn child for any reason, or no reason at all. You say rape/incest victims should be allowed to abort the babies conceived by such an act. Do you argue that the majority of abortions that are done for other reasons should be made illegal? Only 1% of all abortions are due to rape/incest. Approximately 95% are done as a means of birth control. Do you think that's wrong?

"(all while whispering how she probably asked for it, how she was a slut anyway, how she dressed like a harlot and she deserved what she got, blahblahblah behind her back)"

Another strawman. Has ANY person who claimed to be pro-life acted in this way. Undoubtedly. However, this is not my experience with pro-lifers. The vast majority have a great deal of compassion for women in crisis pregnancy situations, and will do all in their power to help them.

"And I know for a fact if the baby is black, they're not quite so quick to help...they only want nice white marketable babies they can dish out to their friends."

Bullshit! Another strawman. If you want the truth on where the racism lies, why not read up a bit on the history of Planned Parenthood and it's founder, Margaret Sanger, and her view of eugenics. Don't take my word for it, look it up. Here's one for starters:

http://blackgenocide.org/

Check out what they have to say about Sanger's eugenics ideas:

http://blackgenocide.org/negro.html

So, you think Christ never shows up? That He doesn't have to deal with any of this? He showed up. He's dealt with it. He took it to the cross. He took on all the sin of mankind. At the garden of Gethsemane, He saw all the sins ever committed, as only God can, past, present, and future. All the abortion, abuse, murder, rape, hatred, etc., etc. Not only did He see all this sin, He FELT it. He had the flesh torn from His body in the scourging. A crown of thorns pressed down on His head. Nails driven through His hands and feet. A spear thrust in His side. You think He doesn't know the pain of a rape victim?

Then you say, "He could stop it and doesn't." God gave us free will. You certainly want that, as you think women should be free to have an abortion. It's wrong, but God gives you free will to either accept Him, accept the commandments He gave us because He loves us, or you use that free will to reject Him and go your own way. But, it's the same way for everyone. Some use their free will to choose to do evil. What you suggest by blaming God for not stopping people from doing evil, is for Him to make us puppets. No free will at all. Not even free to love or reject God. Puppets. Is that what you want?

"Frankly, you don't get to criticize how other people handle the garbage you allow to be heaped on them when you don't lift a finger to do anything yourself."

Again, blaming me for all the ills of this world. Instead of blaming me for the evil done by others, why not let them take responsibility for their own actions. I'm much too damn busy trying to raise my four daughters to be good, moral, holy children that will one day spend all eternity in heaven. God have mercy.

David B

10:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, I don't rely on statistics. I value people as individuals, not mere components of a percentage.

Each woman is different. Hence the importance of choice. You would remove the choice and FORCE your choice upon them. Let people make their own choices, otherwise you're just a tyrant who believes you have the right to violate another human being's body based on your religious beliefs. You know, like the Taliban. Maybe you can start beating women in the streets if you don't like the way they look - sounds like it might be right up your alley.

That cow, midwesternmom, judged me and asked for my credentials first - didn't see you getting on her about it. Or course not. Because she's on your "side". Because "sides" and "winning" are all that counts. Not actual people. Call your own out on the shit you call me out on, and you might have some credibility. Until then, shut the fuck up, asshole.

So you're anti Iraq-war? Why can't you say it? Are you really against the killing of all innocent life - ALL innocent life - or is that just a stupid-ass, mindless statement you make so you don't have to say what you really believe? Or do you think the children of Iraq are not innocent because they're Muslims or because their skin is brown? Or because filling up your car twice a week is more important than their lives? Take a stand, asshole, and speak up for it. What are you so afraid of?

Yes, I believe that sometimes, in some situations, the life of the mother supercedes the life of the baby FORCED into her body by a criminal. And the baby isn't "punished". What a load of bullshit propaganda. The baby gets to take a pass on the shithole that this life is and go straight to this God of yours - or at least that's what you Christians say you believe. Or are you still preaching limbo? Why should the mother suffer further? She's innocent, too. Oh, wait...but now she's not a virgin anymore, so I guess she's not quite as innocent and valuable as the unborn baby. She's used goods. She's dirty. She's not fit to marry. So now you people can use her to get a baby from and then toss her to the side. Well, fuck you.

No, the "vast majority" of the people in the pro-life movement are just a bunch of loudmouth hypocrites who want to shout "whore" at women outside abortion clinics. Maybe if you'd lose the words "whore" and "murderer" from your vocabulary, someone might believe you give a shit, but actions speak louder than words. Also, until all you thousands and thousand of supposedly compassionate pro-lifers tell this supposedly tiny minority of hate-mongers who just want to harrass already victimized women to shut the fuck up and get lost, and do it in public, at the clinics, where people can see you do it, you're just a pack of hypocrites and everyone knows it. But you won't. Because they're on your "side" and that's all that counts, so you sit back and do nothing and the world sees you for what you are.

There are "crisis pregnancy centers" who refuse to help girls who won't accept Christianity, and there are "crisis pregnancy centers" who will not take a girl in if the child is bi-racial. This is documented fact. Again, until you supposedly good and kind and loving people clean up your own backyard, who cares what you have to say? We see what you really believe no matter what words come out of your mouths.

Oooooh...that Christ...son of God...with the alive again and in heaven in three days guarantee...what a risk-taker...

Please.

So, uh, this dude takes on the sins of the world, makes a big show of it, and then takes off to the big five star resort in the sky and watches the rest of us suffer - even though he can stop it any time! - like we're just characters in a video game. He doles out pain and suffering and violence and torture and rape, leaves us to it, and then rewards the people who "win" by kissing his ass through it all, and sends the people who don't kiss his ass to hell. Well, I'll take hell. It's more honest. I hate ass-kissers, and I hate hypocrites. If Christ had any balls at all, he'd get off the holy lounge chair, put down his little game control device, and actually do something. But he doesn't. Or can't. Or won't. Well, a big fuck you to him, then. I have no respect for that.

Uh, that last comment you quoted was about Christ, not you, but that you have a god complex doesn't surprise me.

Four daughters? Ha. Good thing women like me will fight for choice - odds are that one of them is bound to need EC or an abortion one day...

And someone like me who ran into someone like you will happily escort them right through the doors of the clinic.

11:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

There's no use continuing this discussion with you. Until you let go of your anger and hatred, you will never be happy. If that is what you choose, that's the life you will have. You've misrepresented what I and many, many pro-lifers believe with such a broad brush that there really is no point in continuing trying to have a rational discussion with you. That Ono seems willing to allow you to continually use vulgar language, instead of having respectful conversation says a lot about him as well. So, God bless and heal you, whether you want Him to or not.

David B

6:32 PM  
Anonymous midwestmom said...

David B.,

Good attempt at trying to communicate to Anonymous but it's obviously pointless.

I agree with your observation about Oko allowing all the vulgar language. Low class.

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